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QUESTION:
Date: Sat Jan 5 01:18:30 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, no 2nd drags on 4th
Vehicle: 93 chevy z71, 5.7
Mileage: 105000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: slips in 2nd & 4th
Original Codes Present: none
Previous Repairs: none
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: no 2nd drags on 4th
Codes Currently Present: none
Work Completed: removed trans, band was very burnt and drum hot. o/h, replaced input drum and epc. on test dr, shift 1/2 good, 2/3 good. when it shifts to 4th it feels like you have a 10,000 lb trailer behind you. slow down do several more upshifts, the same problem.just before i get back to the shop it looses 2nd. remove pan, see a piece of band material and fluid burnt odor. remove trans. band black. ck servo, v/body. could find nothing wrong. reinstalled. same problem. pressure test good, 60 at idle goes up w/throttle. replace v/body, same problem except on test dr no 2nd from getgo. grab another core, build it, works perfect. will disassemble original trans in the am.
Summary: none
Preston Farmer - 0
TRNi Member Since: 10/03/2001 (11 | 24)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Sat Jan 5 05:53:40 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, no 2nd drags on 4th
Vehicle: 93 chevy z71, 5.7Hi Preston, Here is some info that may help with this. TransDoc Visual Diagnostics Saturday January 05, 2002 7:52:21 TH 4L60E Trouble Guide 33 ------------------------- Binds in 4th 1) Overrun sprag jammed on 2) Cross leak into overrun clutch 3) Overrun clutch improperly assembled - Locked on 4) Care must be used with the new molded pistons. A molded seal type coast clutch piston with an aluminum forward piston will cause this problem because of a lack of adequate clearance on the overrun clutchs. Any mixing of different type pistons in the input clutch housing should be done only with extreme care From: Dan Tucker Tucker Transmission Pine Bluff, Arkansas Press a NUMBER or (P) FOR A PRINTOUT or (+ or -) FOR PAGES or Press ENTER
Ron Widing - TransDoc Software
TRNi Member Since: 11/29/96 (0 | 162)
- Date: Sat Jan 5 07:14:44 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, no 2nd drags on 4th
Vehicle: 93 chevy z71, 5.7Aircheck the Input Drum while still loaded and try turning the Sun Gear in both directions when just the Forwards are on. If it only turns one way OK but if it is locked in both directions it is stacked wrong. Did you replace/install a molded piston all by it's own? There are dimensional differences. Ask me how I know!
Leo Schneggenburger -
TRNi Member Since: 1/30/99 (4 | 265)
FIX:
Date: Sat Jan 5 11:49:03 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, no 2nd drags on 4thdrag on 4th caused by locked up input sprag. loss of 2nd was a result of sprag and finish on drum too rough, it wiped the band lineing right off. Todd, i would suggest changeing the complaint to "binds up on 3/4 shift" since the loss of 2nd was not aprimary problem. But if i'm not mistaken, binds up 4th is already in fix base. thanks to those who responded. ip
Preston Farmer - 0
TRNi Member Since: 10/03/2001 (11 | 24)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Fri Jan 11 22:21:39 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8
Mileage: 68,756PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: Blowing fluid out of vent and transmission overheating.
Original Codes Present: P1870 TCC Slippage
Previous Repairs: Rebuild, Shift Kit, Woven Carbon Fiber Converter, All internal transmission electrical components, flat sanded pump halves, v/b, and torque everything to specs.
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: "It's doing the same thing as before. The check engine light comes on and 'my mechanic' tells me it has a slipping torque converter due to the P1870 code."
Codes Currently Present: P1870 TCC Slippage
Work Completed: None, yet. Customer will be back this Monday.
Summary: I orginally put the Life Temperature recorders on both cooler lines from the get-go and they show neither cooler line has ever been over 190F. I'm aware of the Sonnax products that address this issue, but I opted for the TransGo route, because it's supposed to fix this problem. My supplier didn't have the Sonnax products readily available, but had the Shift Kit in stock. From my understanding, the Shift Kit fixes this problem. I read the Fix Database first and found an interesting article written by Dan Tucker on diagnosing this often talked about problem. I have not had the opportunity to try his method, yet. Does the TFT affect lock up apply? Could I have the wrong converter in the vehicle because it didn't come with a Woven Carbon Fiber converter. Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestion are welcome.
Larry Bloodworth -
TRNi Member Since: 9/26/97 (11 | 44)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Fri Jan 11 23:02:12 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8HI, THE FIRST THING THAT I WOULD TRY WOULD BE A SONNAX PWM SLEEVE AND VALVE. AND YOU NEED TO BUY A REEMER AS WELL. ALEX
Ales Sharp - 0
TRNi Member Since: 12/20/2001 (2 | 2)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 01:22:03 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8I tend to think converter on this. It has become a standard practice here to install the SK (My boss isn't a big fan of anything that costs more money so this means something) and we have had great results with it fixing this problem. You may also need to look into the bushing areas of the Input Shaft and Stator for looseness that could causes a leak.
Leo Schneggenburger -
TRNi Member Since: 1/30/99 (5 | 270)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 04:42:25 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Larry- Did this truck come in with a woven carbon lining t.c.,or did you install one on your own? If it came in with the woven, then I would suggest buying the reamer and kit from Sonnax. If it didn't have the woven lining originally, then I'd change the t.c to a paper lining. This truck also could have already had a GM re-man valve body on it, and the regulator bore may have been "reamed" already.??? Dan's method about trans. temp and tcc slip is GREAT, and you can easily see the slippage with a movie on your scan tool.(usually at about 150-175 degrees F.) HTH...Long time, no hear from you. Glad to see you're back.
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 168)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 05:45:56 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Hi Larry. I have been using the Sonnax repair valve in every rebuild I do, and put it in many other vehicles just to fix the 1870 code. I've used the Trans Go valve too, but I still see a posiblity for a leak. I think you are better off reaming the bore and using the Sonnax valve. Why put a new valve in a worn out bore? I also use the paper lined converters in everything. No problems so far. Of course, Ohio isn't known for it's hills, but I've fixed a lot of 4L60E's with 1870 code with the Sonnax valve. I'm not against the Trans Go valve set up, I think it just depends on how much wear is in the bore. Every trans still gets a Trans Go kit. JMHO
Dave Hocanson -
TRNi Member Since: 2/15/00 (0 | 7)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 05:50:00 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Larry, Don't forget this is a 96, so you have to check and see if it needs the ground wire update. Also, did you put a Transgo boost valve in? We use the kit and valve in all 4L60E's, with the paper converter, and have good success. What have you done about cooling? My suggestion at this point would be to switch the converter, bypass the radiator with a 7589 Trucool and install the boost valve and check the computer. JMO Mike
Mike McLaughlin -
TRNi Member Since: 10/31/00 (0 | 17)
- Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:06:12 -0900
Subject: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A GradeLarry, You used the woven carbon converter? That is not for use in a pre EC3 system. I know the TransGo valve is supposed to allow any converter to fit any control system but the woven carbon converters have less holding capacity than graphite or paper. Under a heavy load it's possible that the converter is starting to slip and that computer system is not going to like it. Jimmy Taylor Taylor's Transmission Service, Inc. Anchorage, Ak
Jimmy Taylor
Anchorage, Alaska
TRNi Member Since: 11/1/96 (0 | 133)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 06:17:10 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8We've used allot of woven clutch assemblies in our high performance converters with no slipping or ill effects in vehicles in excess of 500 horsepower.They lock-up and hold great in 700's, and all manner of 4L60E's. We like the Sonnax valve and include it in every rebuild, it gets to the root problem and repairs it.
Greg Ducato - 0
TRNi Member Since: 11/28/2001 (1 | 6)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 06:21:56 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Hi Larry Along with the other good replies I didn't see mention if you addressed the ground wire problem since this is a 96. That alone could cause your problem. We just finished a '96 Surburban yesterday and it definitely needed the ground update.
Chuck Clampitt - Chuck's Transmission
TRNi Member Since: 12/25/98 (0 | 168)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 06:27:26 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Larry I didn't think woven carbon was used in 96. I'd get a regular conv. and I have taked care of a lot of 1870's with Dans fix. As a matter of fact I've cured a lot of them without pulling trans. Just did the fix. If you need more info let me know I can fax you a sheet on it.
Bud Tegeler -
TRNi Member Since: 5/14/98 (7 | 18)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 07:13:06 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Larry, All the posts have been right on but I do have another suggestion. We recently did two different units with very high mileage. One of them was a unit we had previously done and it already had the Sonnax TCC valve in the valve body. Having read Dan Tucker's posts regarding the AFL valve wear, we were amazed to find how much wobble there was on that valve bore. Also, it's easier to see when you remove the spring pressure. On the other unit, we had a low to nearly no cooler flow after installation and once again we found the cause to be a worn bore and this time it was the TCC valve in the pump cover. With the springs removed and the valve stroked inward (and the pump split) shine a light on the face of the cover and look down the bore for light around the valve. This may not be a totally accurate way to check but once you check a few you will be very surprised. This one was so bad you could wiggle the valve side to side with a magnet. We were installing the Sonnax TCC valve in the valve body on all units but due to this finding we will now also be installing the Sonnax AFL kit in the v/body and the TCC valve with teflon seal in the cover.
David Schaffel - MTO Enterprises
TRNi Member Since: 6/9/00 (0 | 70)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 07:49:36 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8you are receiving very good info on this condition...just want to say that if you do remove tranny,check that capsule in the input shaft and inside the shaft itself for any debri,oil not flowing through the shaft well will cause clutch not to engage fully..I have personnally left out the capsule out in longer wheelbase vehicles and thought that the clutch performed very well without any side-effects at all(such as being harsh)..I am enjoying the debate between the sonnax and transgo method of repair..I have only used the transgo method so far and all has been well..by using the inner spring out of the pump slide, you can block the regulator valve entirely, it seems to me that if this was done that you could still possibly have a leak , but it would take several miles for the condition to show up, I am understanding that the code sets fairly quickly on yours..be sure to take a full pressure test and noticing line rise in particular.. Goodluck Brian reagan
Brian Reagan -
TRNi Member Since: 12/10/2000 (5 | 104)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 16:26:22 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8We have left the check ball out of the capsule on 700s before and it did give a pretty firm lockup. Probably a little to radical for the daily driver in my opinion. However for the guy who really wants that thing to bang through the gears I would do it.
Jody Schroeder -
TRNi Member Since: 5/5/99 (3 | 8)
- Date: Sat Jan 12 17:41:08 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Hi Larry I have had good success with the shift kit in most cases but I did have one that the SK did not fix, It was then that I bought the Sonnax reamer and valve sleeve and it fixed the problem. Since then I use the SK on all rebuilds but if a vehicle comes in specifically for a code 1870 I will install the Sonnax fix.
Tom Whitty -
TRNi Member Since: 8/14/99 (0 | 22)
- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:45:24 -0600
Subject: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A GradeI don't know how that would react with a functioning PWM system. And I don't think I want to be the one to find out.
Chuck Chuck Clampitt
Marlow, Oklahoma
TRNi Member Since: 12/25/98 (0 | 169)
- Date: Sun Jan 13 22:01:43 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Hi Larry, I heard Steve Garrett caution using the woven converter in other applications because it doesn't hold up to harsh engagements like you would have if you used the inner pump slide spring on the TC regulator. The woven material doesn't take an impact beating very well because it is like a fabric and the fibers can spread out from impact. Clear as mud right?
Daniel Wills - Mid-City
danwills@mindspring.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/23/99 (0 | 30)
- Date: Mon Jan 14 18:01:43 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Grade
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban, 350 V-8Larry This code we see at least once a week between the 4T60E and the 4L60e , we alway's ream the valve body and install the sonnex valve, after having been stung real BAD by a van that almost lost us a great account. Everyone's giving you great info but I can't tell if you've added the ground wire to the ECM yet. I just had another 96 yukon in last week that an old employee own's the band was burnt, and 3rd clutches smoked ' we built the unit and sent it out only to return the next day with complaints and 1870 again I put in the ground wire ' redrove the veh. with my gauge still attached and the gauge became much more crisp and responsive to slight throtle movements ' my former employee picked up the vehicle and called back two day's later to say the veh. never felt this good in the last two years .Every 96 will get the $4.00 wire and 10 min installation from now on , I recomend it to every one it's a great safegaurd.Also GM claims later years have the same problem we've yet to run into one but Im sure their out there.
Alan Doherty -
the4dz@rcn.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/7/00 (9 | 4)
- Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:53:55 -0800
Subject: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A GradeLarry, 1996..... check the computer for wire at pin 26 of the red connector. Get a new mechanic, this one doesn't know enough to work on todays transmission. There is no way the P1870 is causing the converter to slip. P1870 simply tells you that a component is slipping, and it usually is the TCC. Yes, you have the wrong converter lining in there, but I doubt this could be your problem. First thing first, when you get this vehicle back put a gauge on it and hook up your scanner to monitor the data. The SK normally takes care of the valve body wear most of the time but there are many other things that could cause a P1870. First thing to find out is if it is doing the same thing hot or cold. Tow different approach depending on your observation there. Most likely cause of TCC slip after installing the SK is; SK not installed properly, chewed up input shaft and/or bushings in stator support, bad TCC solenoid, bad TCC PWM solenoid, worn out AFL bore, worn out TCC valve bore in pump, low pressure or band not holding. Good luck, Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 234)
FIX:
Date: Sun Jan 20 15:07:04 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A GradeReplaced valve body with GM reman valve body. Hey, guys...feature this: I E-mailed Howard Johnson at Sonnax for a reamer and valve setup. My local supplier (ATC) had the reamer and valve in stock. About $130 for the reamer and $70 for the valve set up. Just for grins & giggles, I called my local GM dealer and they had the whole valve body WITH ALL THE ELECTRONICS (except pressure manifold switch) for only $130!!! I paid more than that for just the transmission's internal electronics. I'm guessing they are reaming the valve bore, too; because there's a $40 core charge on the valve body. So, I spent $170 and have $40 coming back. The core I sent back I stripped the $200 worth of electronics I previously bought and installed. :-( The next 4L60E I build...forget buying all the electronics. I'll just buy a valve body and get all the electronics (except pressure manifold switch and internal wiring harness)
Larry Bloodworth -
larrybloodworth@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 9/26/97 (11 | 44)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Sun Jan 20 16:24:11 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A GradeLarry, I'd really be curious to find out if that VB HAS been fixed (reamed). I kinda doubt it has. Has it been installed yet? If not, take a look at it....please. But, with your lengthy warranty, I'm sure you'll find out one way or another. Hopefully it'll be a "no news is good news" scenario. Also, are you SURE the electronics are REALLY new, & not "remans" just like the VB? You know, just like Mopar does? The price is a pretty good clue as to what they do to these VB's. Think about it: would YOU do a VB with new solenoids, filter, acc. piston w/seal & a valve bore repair for $130.00? And as far as the reamer tool(s) are concerned; 2 jobs & it's paid for. Right Howard? It just sounds too good to be true. BUT, I DID hear about it on the Internet. ;<)
Ted Turney -
tedeb@pacbell.net
TRNi Member Since: 11/1/96 (1 | 54)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Sun Jan 20 17:53:44 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E 1870 PULLING A GRADE FIXLarry- Watch out on these rebuilt GM V.B's. G.M. does nothing to compensate for AFL bore wear.I was told this at the Expo '01 by one of the seminar speakers. And, I'll wonder if all the solenoids are new, or "tested." Glad you fixed it.
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 172)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Sun Jan 20 18:59:42 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A GradeLarry, I've seen the prices on these valve bodies range from $130 to $550, depending on application. Don't ask why, no one seems to know. Anyway, I work for a GM dealer and I cringe every time I have to put one of these in. It's like playing Russian Roulette. I would also check different suppliers. I just got one of the Sonnax valves on Friday for about $35 from Transstar. The reamer was a one time purchase of about $100 that paid for itself a long time ago. Hope this helps.....
Larry Utter -
lcutter@warwick.net
TRNi Member Since: 1/11/98 (0 | 18)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Mon Jan 21 12:22:53 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Gradein referance to tcc ramping on. I think it was jimmy who mentioned the 90% and 95% and the sequence of ramping on. I just finished driveing a 95 buick park ave and it's sequence is totaly different. tcc duty cycle is 0 until tcc is commanded on and then snappy starts at 100% AND very quickly goes down to around 45%. it then moves up and down with throttle but never higher than 49%. tcc slip moves from 5 to 20. once it gets hot, duty cycle starts at 100%, drops quickly, pauses at 45% then continues down to 0%. tcc slip never showes any decrease. is it supposed to ramp up like the 4l60e we've been discussing?? ip
Preston Farmer - 0
ipz73@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 10/03/2001 (12 | 32)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Mon Jan 21 13:57:51 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, P1870 Only Pulling A Gradejimmy my statement that tcc slip showes no decrease when duty cycle is o% may have been clear as mud. what i meant was/when hot as duty cycle ramps on, indicated tcc slip does not decrease. tcc continues to slip, then duty cycle continues to 0%
Preston Farmer - 0
ipz73@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 10/03/2001 (12 | 33)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Thu Jan 17 17:08:40 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4cul
Mileage: 45000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: dealer screwed it up
Original Codes Present: didn't check
Previous Repairs: Dealer put in reman.
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: check engine light on
Codes Currently Present: PO1870 tcc slip
Work Completed: none
Summary: This thing originaly came in with converter making metal.The said converter was painted gray with no codes or stickers. Converter was replaced with apaper clutch,10thvin is v,sonnax pwm valve,complete overhaul with all electronics. It has came back twice with fluid looking like motor oil.It takes about 100 mile trip to turn the light.MY QUESTION IS DOES IT NEED A CARBON CLUTCH.With snappy scanner half way through 1st gear tcc duty cycle goes to 90%,is it possible to have a carbon clutch in a 1997. Thanks in advance Fred.
Fred Whitaker - 0
ibsprag@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 10/31/2001 (1 | 1)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Thu Jan 17 18:45:09 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culFred, Even though the word WAS that 1998 was the first year for EC3 system, I think that we're figuring that most 1997s are also EC3. I believe that my men are determining whether the converter uses a paper or woven clutch by the TCC PWM valve diameter, early or late. We did manage to get an early converter in a late application a few months ago, and this forum answered the same question you are asking for me. I remember driving that truck, and it chattered so badly on lockup when under load that we only drove it about two or three miles. So I don't think it would take much driving to turn the fluid dark if you continued to drive a vehicle with the wrong converter.
Lane Floria -
lane@ls-trans.com
TRNi Member Since: 12/7/98 (2 | 25)
- Date: Thu Jan 17 19:07:44 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culFred, we have a few full size vans for area shops ,kenworth ect that came in with the trans wiped out. we did the rebuild and at the time ATC offered only one converter the c40a and in a pwm system they DO NOT LAST! in order to use a standard lining you must convert the pump to a non pwm. I'm at home and can't give you the info to convert it if that is your decision. good luck
Robert Patrick -
trannydoctor1@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 06/18/2001 (0 | 27)
- Date: Thu Jan 17 19:23:23 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culFred, I know Transgo says you can use any converter with their kit without problems, I'm not sure about Sonnax. You said the original converter was making metal have you flow tested the cooler, on units with lots of metal I alway bypass the radiator and install a new cooler.
Rick at Henderson Trans -
opandy@yahoo.com
TRNi Member Since: 6/23/98 (4 | 59)
- Date: Thu Jan 17 19:24:35 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culFred, With the TCC PWM duty cycle going to 90% you should have an early style PWM setup. The EC3 systems go above 95% once you start moving. Look at the scan pictures of a '96 Jimmy, http://www.transbuilder.com/trni/z_image_post/GM4364.html#1 and you see that the top picture shows 90% until the TCC command. On a EC3 type (some 97's and all 98's) you'll see a higher duty cycle. Most are 96% but some later models can go a bit higher. I guess the key thing to remember here is that code P1870 is not a TCC slip code. With the RPM sensor and the VSS sensor as the only inputs, anything in between those sensors is capable of triggering this code. My question to you would be what did you find wrong during the two return trips back to you? You might want to put a pressure gauge on this one and go for an extended ride. A bad EPC or a bad command for low line can allow the converter to slip as well. Another thing that comes to mind is I believe that all 2.2 4L60-E's came equipped with the graphite lining and not a paper. If you look at these pictures, http://www.transbuilder.com/trni/z_image_post/GM9092.html#1 you'll see that the pre EC3 strategy was to slip the converter off during a part throttle downshift or TCC release. By slipping the converter a smoother release could be made. Graphite is used to take the heat. The 2.2 on the S10 isn't the most powerful engine and most of the operation of the vehicle is going to be mid throttle ranges. Still though 100 miles should not be soon enough for this to be a factor. First thing I would do is monitor line pressure and make a move after I had those numbers. Also the Actuator Feed Limit valve is also prone to wear and that is what feeds the PWM and shift solenoids. You could be loosing fluid before it gets to the PWM solenoid.
Jimmy Taylor -
odie@gci.net
TRNi Member Since: 11/1/96 (0 | 137)
- Date: Thu Jan 17 19:30:10 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culFred, We ALWAYS install a paper lining on 1997-and back 4L60E's. We try to stay away from the carbon COMPOSITE that was used in the 1997's. No notice I did not say anything about the Carbon woven. We use carbon woven on 1998-up 4L60E's. Back to your problem. VERIFY the problem. Take it for a test drive with the scanner on it. Highlight the data TFT, TCC Slip, TCC Enable (Commanded). Once the TFT gets to about 150 or better, see if the TCC slip is near zero + or - 15 rpms. Try to trick the TCC into slipping by tipping into the throttle just a bit about .5 seconds after the VCM commands the TCC on. A lot of time this will help you to SEE the problem. If it is slipping more than 15 rpms, then you will most likely have internal transmission problems. From your post, I see you mentioned the Sonnax valve. Is this the 77754-03K TCC regulator repair kit? THis is a great choice on the P1870. Next make sure the TCC apply valve is free. MANY MANY times the little plastic orfice n the pump under the aluminum oorfice plug, will move and bind the TCC apply valve The TCC apply valve is the valve in he pump under the TCC solenoid. Make certain that you have good line PSI and good line rise (60-180 in OD range). It is rare, but the TCC apply valve can wear and cause a P1870, and so can a wron PR valve in the pump. Look at the rear stator bushing really close. The paper lining really works BEST on this year model in my opinon as it has better clamping and holding power. One last note it is OK to install the Sonnax 77754-03K TCC regulator valve kit and install a 700 inner pump spring instead of the Sonnax spring that goes between the isolator and TCC reg valve. Last the AFL valve can wear and cause AFL loss to a point that it can affect TCC apply. Good luck and post the fix.
Dan Tucker - Tucker's Transmission
transman@prodigy.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (1 | 182)
- Date: Fri Jan 18 05:00:42 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culHI Fred We have installed the woven converter in early models of vehicles and I can tell you from experience that it will work if you use the SK. We tried it in a 1997 Grand Am 4T60e and we also did it in a 1997 Tahoe, 4L60E. Both worked just fine. Neither one came with a woven converter. Jimmy Taylor and Dan Tucker both have given you excellent information. I have seen woven converters in earlier than 98 vehicles, if we are in doubt we cut it open an have a look for ourselves. I am right down the road from you if you want to take a test drive and bring a converter in question to cut open and look inside. Let me know-
Kit Lindsay - Lindsay Transmission
lindsay2@sprintmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 4/18/98 (2 | 121)
- Date: Fri Jan 18 05:27:11 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culFred, Everyone else has given you great advice, one small point, you need to have TCC enable ON and TCC duty cycle ramped up before the TCC will apply, it is common to see TCC duty cycle in the 90 % range with TCC enable OFF, in which case you will not have TCC apply. I have seen this many times. HTH Jerry
Jerry Martire - Shirlington Transmissions
transmission_doctor@worldnet.att.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/5/00 (1 | 73)
- Date: Fri Jan 18 17:00:36 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culJerry, you're responce to fred's problem leaves me confused{more so than normal}. I was under the impression once the computer had met all criteria for lockup, it then grnded the tcc solenoid and at the same time started cycleing the pwm solenoid. why or how would the computer do one without the other? ip
Preston Farmer - 0
ipz73@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 10/03/2001 (12 | 30)
UPDATE:
Date: Fri Jan 18 18:14:16 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10Thanks for all the responses.This thing has sat on A trash can all week.I finale tore it apart today.All clutches and band cherry.Bushings were starting to get Hawaiian daisies {LAKALUBE} I found the plastic duffus under the orifice in the pump against the lockup valve and rejoiced.Wen,t to lunch thought about it ,looked at it ,looked at it and I aint buyin it.I got the plastick housing with checkball and spring out without destroying it.I could visualise pump pressure knocking this ball capsule against the lockup valve,but I have a vivid imagination.The capsule is in one piece,could it wedge the valve?Too bad we all cant do this in a beer joint. THANKS From Fred
Fred Whitaker - 0
ibsprag@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 10/31/2001 (1 | 2)
MORE RESPONSES:
- Date: Sat Jan 19 07:08:35 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culSorry, I don't know the answer to the question of why the compter commands PWM when TCC enable is off. I just reported the data that I have seen. Someone who wrote the computer code will have to explain that. It makes no sense to me either and I have written a lot of computer programs. Jerry
Jerry Martire - Shirlington Transmissions
transmission_doctor@worldnet.att.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/5/00 (1 | 75)
- Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:34:32 -0900
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10I believe the PWM duty cycle is commanded high so that when the command to apply the converter comes, there will be enough fluid pressure to stroke the TCC valve in the pump. Just trying to get the TCC valve to jump quickly to counter act the return spring pressure and the balancing force of the fluid feeding the converter and the return from the converter going to the cooler. If they left the PWM duty cycle low I can see some instances where the converter would apply very slowly and set P1870. Even on the 4T60E/65E with a single solenoid in control at the time of TCC apply the PWM is suddenly ramped up to 35 -38% to stroke the TCC shift valve. I guess GM could have used this same system on the EC3 4L60-E's and ID would be much easier. But changes like that cost more money. Jimmy Taylor Taylor's Transmission Service, Inc. Anchorage, Ak odie@gci.net
Jimmy Taylor
Anchorage, Alaska
odie@gci.net
TRNi Member Since: 11/1/96 (0 | 139)
- Date: Sun Jan 20 15:26:07 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10
Vehicle: 1997 chevy S-10, 2.2 4culFred: I think everybody's advice is accurate. In addition, the late models with the woven carbon fiber friction...have different torsional damper spring set ups. Some have 4 single damper springs; some have 2 dual springs and 2 single springs. Others have 4 dual spring setups. I agree with Dan about the paper friction having more holding power, but I like the woven carbon friction on PWM or EC3 systems. Dan made a great photo of a baked 4L60E converter that had turned blue, but the TCC friction survived. I just had one kick my hiney, doing the same as your unit. Read my fix.
Larry Bloodworth -
larrybloodworth@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 9/26/97 (11 | 45)
- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:48:10 -0600
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10I have noticed that no one has mentioned that GM has changed the valve body gaskets that is suposed to help fight the P1870 code. They have even marked w/ letters to help identify. 93 -99 lower gasket has a 'V', 00 lower gasket has a 'VB', the upper ones are C & CA respectively. Does anyone know why or how it might help?
Chuck Stasny
Houston, Texas
cdsstaz@wt.net
TRNi Member Since: 12/7/2001 (1 | 4)
- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:59:05 -0800
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10Good point that you bring up Chuck (next time please sign your post) about the new plate and gaskets. I don't know what the improvement is, but I wanted to mention that the last 3 separator plates I bought from the dealer (because a checkball had beat the plate) came updated with the latest design plate and gaskets. Wonder if anybody knows what the change in design does to help prevent the valve body from wearing out?? Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 235)
- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:09:11 -0500
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10Watch out for these new gaskets. They only go with the new style valve body and spacer plate. If you order a reman valve body from GM, it may come with a plate and gaskets. This valve body retro fits back, but you don't always get it. I think it's being phased in.........Larry Utter
Larry Utter
Johnson, New York
lcutter@warwick.net
TRNi Member Since: 1/11/98 (0 | 20)
- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:35:09 -0800
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10I always thought the PCM kept the TCC PWM solenoid at 90% to both. charge the system before the command get send tot he TCC ON/OFF solenoid, and to keep the PWM solenoid free of debris. Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 237)
FIX:
Date: Mon Jan 21 17:39:59 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10After having this thing on the back burner for over a week,first thinking carbon clutch,that wasn't it.Then I found the plastic orifice under the ball and spring above lockup valve in the pump cover. I was convinced that was it. Then I flopped the valve body on the bench,It already had sonnax valve&%>?!-3,I was gonna block it with a piece of cooler line Inner pump springs are hard to come by.That's when I FOUND IT the LITTLE VALVE THAT GOES IN BOTTOM OF BORE RATTLES AROUND LIKE A BB IN A TIN CAN. THE VALVE BODY IS WORN OUT ,CHEWED UP ,WASTED. The sonnax valve boring tool only uses this bottom bore as a guide,they should resleeve and revalve entire bore.Ive been working on transmissions too long and am sick os fixes that don't work.I didn't look there because this is supposed to be the fix,oh well. thanks for all the responses Fred
Fred Whitaker - 0
ibsprag@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 10/31/2001 (1 | 2)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Sun Jan 27 09:31:17 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10- fixFred, Glad you worked on this thing until you actually found the problem and reported the fix, however I don't think that Sonnax deserves critisism for not fixing this particular problem. If you have been in this businsess for any length of time, you will know that life before Sonnax, in particular the Task Force and all the fixes they have developed, was a crap shoot. Your choices were replacing a worn out valve body with another worn out valve body from a used parts supplier, or purchasing a new one from the dealer. Did you ever try to buy a rebuilt valve body from a dealer 15 or 20 years ago? I believe the only reason there are dealer available rebuilt v/bodies today is because of Sonnax (and others in the aftermarket) and their fixes. Look what happened when the aftermarket began making E4OD Boost Valves/sleeves for the pump- Ford decided it was now OK to sell that part without the rest of the pump assembly. Regarding your particular problem, others have already pointed out that there is a good chance the valve body had already got the GM re-bore, which is larger than the Sonnax kit, and I would have to agree. We have been checking these valves and installing the kit almost since they were developed and I have never seen a valve so loose as to 'rattle like a BB', even though most of the units we are now doing have 180,000 to 300,000 miles on the odometer. In addition, you also stated you didn't check the valve because it was suppose to be the fix. Welcome to the assumption club, which like you, every tech worth their salt will someday join as they fail to re-check their own or others work and get burned. In this case, you have to assume that the previous tech checked the bore for proper size/wear before reaming, installed it in the correct line up, and that the tech also checked it after to ensure he/she didn't screw it up performing the task. I would also urge you to not rely solely on this particular valve repair as the total fix. We are now finding, as others have found before us, that the AFL valve kit in the valve body and the TCC valve kit in the pump need to be installed in nearly every unit with high mileage. This may not be the proper forum for this type of post reply however I feel very strongly that to knock aftermarket companies like Sonnax is to shoot ourselves in the foot. Keep in mind that they are normal people like ourselves and that they have and will make mistakes, although they are the first to admit when they do. The most important thing we have to realize is that without these repairs, the small independant shop will never be able to compete with factory or large reman operations. And just in case you are wondering, I do not work for Sonnax or receive special discounts, however I am constantly amazed as I see a never ending line of new fixes and read all the useful tech info in their catalogues. In addition, you can actually speak with a knowledgeable tech and get anwers to your problems in a hurray.
David Schaffel - MTO Enterprises
dbschaffel@shaw.ca
TRNi Member Since: 6/9/00 (0 | 71)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Sun Jan 27 12:45:20 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, po1870 97 S-10- fixDave, I applaud your reply! This is a very good point we all need to understand! There are numerous points of view (opinions) and we don't always agree. We need companies like SONNAX to supply these valves and tools. With electronic controls and much higher service life, we have few alternatives! Thank you very much for taking valuable time to craft a very necessary reply. Wayne Russell
Wayne Russell -
rusauto@mediaone.net
TRNi Member Since: 11/11/98 (0 | 17)
End Of Thread
PROBLEM / FIX:
Date: Wed Feb 6 04:33:15 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, tcc slip at hard throttle-no codes
Vehicle: 1994 GMC 6.5 Diesel 4X4 Truck 1/2 ton.Problem / Fix: This was a weird one that I thought was interesting, and hope it helps someone. This truck had previously been rebuilt by me at 90,000 miles due to a broken reaction shell.Complete overhaul with new OEM solenoids,Sonnax reverse boost valve,new OEM accumulator pistons, and Precision t.c. The 2-4 band was the hi-energy oem band and was re-used. Now, 145,000 miles on it,truck comes in for a complaint of tcc shudder on apply.Test drive verifies complaint.No codes stored. Pressure is 65-70psi hot,and rises well with throttle opening. For grins, I pull the v.b.,and find the tcc regulator bore worn badly.I installed the Sonnax -03 kit,and a tcc apply solenoid. Test drive and apply shudder is gone,..but scanner shows a tcc slip of 60-80rpms in D4 or D3 on hard acceleration.And tft has to be above 150 degrees F. O.K...I guess the t.c.lining has been slipped too long,so we pull the unit and install a new t.c.(pan and filter were clean as a whistle.) Road test reveals the same problem. After hearing that the afl bore is prone to wear,I pulled the v.b. again,and sure enough, the afl bore IS worn.I installed the Sonnax fix,and also the Sonnax tcc apply valve in the pump stator. SAME PROBLEM! Out it comes again, and this time I pulled the pump and input drum(thinking maybe burned 2-4 band or 3-4 clutches. I could not find a thing wrong with the pump,and the band and clutches look like they were installed yesterday! There was a leak in at the input drum(where the input shaft is pressed into the drum, but still no friction damage.) SHOTGUN APPROACH! I replaced the pump and input drum(re-used the 3-4's),and another t.c. SAME THING!!!!!!! I decide there must be a problem in the v.b.that I can't find,so as I'm changing it,I decide that I might as well install new v.b. gaskets.When I removed the 1-2 accumulator housing,the piston just fell out! NO DRAG on the seal at all,and the accumulator housing was worn badly. What the heck? I stop removing the v.b.,and install a good 1-2 acc.housing and piston, and.... IT'S FIXED! No tcc slip even at 190 degrees F. It appears that the loss of 2nd clutch oil VOLUME was the culprit.This oil feeds the tcc signal valve, and from there it goes to the tcc apply valve.So in my way of thinking, this loss of VOLUME caused this on-off tcc system to work kinda like a pwm tcc system. I believe the reason that the 2-4 band wasn't burned was because it was receiving enough pressure and volume to keep it applied. I don't have hydraulic charts for this trans...YET, so I have to really say a BIG THANK YOU to JIMMY TAYLOR who was kind enough to send me some and even call me on the phone. Also, and I'm going from memory here---Dan Tucker,Robert Bruce, Sam Pitts, Billy Anthony,Stevie Lavallee and ATRA. If I missed anyone, please except my appology. Sorry for the long post..just hope this helps someone.I would like to quote a friend who said "when you have a problem, don't start looking on the 25th floor...start in the basement..the root cause is almost always there."
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 180)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Fri Feb 8 15:39:14 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7
Mileage: 123000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: p1870 trans component slipping
Original Codes Present: metal in pan burnt fwds band smoked ect.also pump stator shaft was spline damaged replaced with aftermarket bolt on. p1870
Previous Repairs: mrk with steels trans go sk pump stator shaft gm33cw rpm/atc woven carbon fibre conv.band filter flush cooler 2nd visit a gm reman valve body and checked wire harness groud harness was factoy updated(no change needed)various scans ect.
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: p1870 keeps coming back trans seems to drive fine all shift components are within .50 sec.on shifts all shifts completed ect pressures fine ect. can drive all the time around town and all is ok but after hot frwy trip thats when all goes bad.
Codes Currently Present: p1870
Work Completed: valve body in pan harness ect.
Summary: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robert White -
doctranyyy@cs.com
TRNi Member Since: 7/14/99 (2 | 0)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Fri Feb 8 17:51:06 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Robert,,,,,,,,,,,did you bother at all to look in the "fix database"? There are no less than 14 different headings of "code 1870" listed there,,,,,complete with the fixes! Please go there and read them,,,,there is a wealth of knowledge there, given from experienced techs that have taken the time to type in the information. I'm wondering about the fact that you used a woven carbon converter. Are you SURE this is a EC3 vehicle?
Darwin Upton -
darwank@usinternet.com
TRNi Member Since: 5/18/99 (5 | 50)
- Date: Fri Feb 8 17:55:24 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7I forgot to mention,,,,,,,,on all these "1870 when hot" vehicles. You don't have to go on a 20 mile road test to make it act up. Just pull over to the side of the road, and stall the converter for 30 seconds,,,,,,,,,that will bring the temperature up quickly. Just watch the temp reading on your scanner. When it reaches about 170F, this is enough to bring about the symptoms if the cause is a worn TCC regulator valve. (which is the case 99.5% of the time)
Darwin Upton -
darwank@usinternet.com
TRNi Member Since: 5/18/99 (5 | 51)
- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:04:13 -0800
Subject: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 milesRobert, Very first thing I notice is that this is a 1996. You know what that mean, you need to make sure you have a wire at pin 26 of the VCM connector labeled red. If not you need to install the jumper GM part # 12167310. If that's done then there is a couple of possibilities. First of all you have the wrong converter lining in there. 1996 doesn't use the woven. I don't know if this is the reason for your converter slip but it probably doesn't help. Second the input shaft could be chewed up where the stator bushings ride. It's quite common and very easy to miss since the shaft looks like it's been machined that way. Could also be a worn pump where the TCC valve rides. One more thing, since you replaced the stator shaft I would look at it closely for anything not normal if you pull the unit. Now how's the pressure on this thing anyway? How about the amount of slip cold versus hot, did you monitor it? Does it have lock-up at all? I got a 1870 the other day simply cause of a bad TCC solenoid. Lots of possibilities here Robert, stop throwing parts at this thing. Just do some diagnostic, figure out what is happening exactly and then it should be easy to find the cause. Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 267)
- Date: Sat Feb 9 11:03:58 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Robert Take out the woven convertor Put and inner pump slide spring inplace of the tcc lineup in the valebody and be sure to check the 1-2 accumulator bor for wear this supplies LU oil and if it leaks you will see it again no matter what you do Look in your Sonnax book for tcc valve changes and new acc pistons they make as far as I know you have to buy and entire Sonnax 4l60E kit to get the pistons. Let me know
Rick Adams - 0
terick3@yahoo.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/24/2002 (1 | 4)
- Date: Sat Feb 9 19:16:22 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Robert, Ist things 1st. What are the PSI readings. You should have about 65 idling in drive and sweep up smoothly to 170 or better at WOT during a stall test. I'm not sure about the Shift Kit on this transmission, but because you say you installed a GM rebuilt valvebody, DOES NOT mean the valve body is OK. GM doesn't address any worn valve in the VB except the TCC regulator to my knowledge. The AFL valve line up is also bad to wear, and yes it can cause a P1870. One thing for sure, you have the wrong converter in it if it is carbon woven. The carbon woven lining is tuff, BUT it has less gripping power, so it is possible to have increase slip from it being in the 1996 4L60E. Save the precious carbon woven lining for the much needed 1998-ups. I would take it for a test drive with the TCC Slip TCC Enable TFT all on the scanner at the same time. Watch the TFT and see if the TCC slip get above 15 RPMs once the TCC Enable is on, once the TFT gets over 200. If the TCC slip is around zero when the TFT is 120 and raises up once the TFT gets above 150 or so, then suspect internal transmission problems. We have fixed many of these with a 700 inner pump spring between the TCC regulator valve and isolator valve. I like the Sonnax TCC repair kit (77754-03K). You can even put the spring with the Sonnax valve for a quicker TCC apply on HD usage. Next don't rule out a bad, worn, or mismatched pump-stator. Even a possible cracked input shaft. And look at Joey Campbell's post about a worn 1-2 accumulator cover causing a TCC slip. Good luck, and post the fix.
Dan Tucker - Tucker's Transmission
transman@prodigy.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (1 | 187)
- Date: Sat Feb 9 19:27:43 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7put the Gil Younger shift kit in it' fix everytime
Steve Walker - 0
sdiswalker@msn.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/21/2002 (0 | 1)
- Date: Sun Feb 10 17:17:46 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Robert on the fix database right at the first there is a section about this. It is my recommendation to get the sonex reamer and valves. I really didn't like the idea of reaming a valvebody bore, but after i did one, and found out how easy and how good of a job it does, I believe it to be the suoerior fix. This will take care of your problem if it is caused by worn tcc regulator bore, and it usually is. Keep us posted
Keith Shoup -
shoupsauto@igiles.net
TRNi Member Since: 02/26/2001 (12 | 54)
UPDATE:
Date: Tue Feb 12 11:38:25 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 milesPlease understand that before I post anything we go thru all tech on the site first! 2nd we had a trans go kit in it 1st,then when it came back we installed a dealer valve body next,all GM valvebodys are either hogged out or the castings are new. 3rd the wire update was not needed due to a factory (mid production)change. Both slots for the ground wire pins had a black/white tracer in them.Same color code as update. SO where do we go from here? Also I hope all of the experts out there realize that on this trany that a code 1870 can be any trans component slipping NOT just the TCC circuit? Note all the shift error times are within spec.appx.53 of a second.Also atc/rpm sells only the woven clutch on these units as to there h.d. status?we are told by them that this is tested and ok? have anything else to add??? thanx bob white
Robert White -
doctranyyy@cs.com
TRNi Member Since: 7/14/99 (2 | 0)
MORE RESPONSES:
- Date: Tue Feb 12 12:19:41 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7had the same problem put in a non woven clutch converter truck is gone
Mark Bell -
mdnbb1@cs.com
TRNi Member Since: 4/14/99 (10 | 3)
- Date: Tue Feb 12 15:23:53 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Well, it looks like you did your homework, Robert. Sorry if I came across a little gruff before. I was looking through the Sonnax catalog this morning and I noticed that they have a replacement for the TCC valve that goes into the pump. They day that wear at this point can cause an 1870 also. I have never seen this, but they certainly wouldn't be making a valve just to see if there lathe worked. I would check that out,,,,at least it's fairly easy to get out.
Darwin Upton - Kennedy Transmission
darwank@usinternet.com
TRNi Member Since: 5/18/99 (5 | 54)
- Date: Tue Feb 12 16:14:44 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Hi Robert Had pwm style pump with bad valve like this and it don't happen that much but was able to install in truck.I have had pumps warp there at the valve samething now I use whit rock on all pumps case halve and vb makes a big difference.Hope this helps.
Sam Pitts -
pitspitts@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 04/26/2001 (3 | 89)
- Date: Tue Feb 12 18:06:10 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7a 96 typically takes a, what i call, regular carbon lined converter. the woven carbon used for the ec3 type systems i have found to be more 97 and up. i dont know if the woven could cause your 1870, but i would definately go with regular carbon lined converter on a 96. hope this helps out.
Jim Currier -
jimstrans2679@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 10/19/99 (1 | 12)
- Date: Tue Feb 12 18:56:32 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Robert, It sounds as if you have done a lot of testing. Remember the more information that you give us the more likely one of the TRNi members will be able to recognize where you are in your 'journey to the fix'. I would like to mention that the checking the wire color may be accurate in knowing that the jumper wire harness (12167310)is installed, but I prefer to check cavity Red #26. If it has a wire, then it is updated. My 43 year old eyes might miss a wire color or tracer color. Your method may work, but it would only take a second to verify, or should I say double check it. It looks as if double checking is in order on your condition as you have covered most of the obvious. I personally don't have near the confidence in the rebuilt GM valvebodies as you do. I have a couple on the self at work (scaping for parts) that we took out of transmissions that we never could get then to work right. It may be us, but I get a bad feeling when I see one of those SERV stamps on the VB. Back to your P1870, you are correct in saying that it don't have to be the TCC slipping, but most of the time it is the slip. I would not use a woven lining in a PWM ramp-on unit. I just don't think that the woven lining will hold near as tight as the paper lining. This is MY opinion, which is quite often wrong, or even subject to changing. I would go back to the VCM, check the red connector, then run a PSI test. If all that is OK, then I would remove the unit, and install a regular paper TCC lining. I would also replace the pump. There aer so many things in the pump that could cause the heating up and loss of TCC apply, I wouldn't risk it. Sometimes it is quicker to through a few parts at a problem so you can move on to the next job. One last note a cracked TCC solenoid can also trip a P1870. It can leak enough when hot to not stroke the TCC apply valve. Good luck Robert.
Dan Tucker - Tucker's Transmission
transman@prodigy.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (1 | 188)
- Date: Wed Feb 13 03:49:17 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Robert- Here's my 2 cents worth. Get the ATC/carbon woven clutch converter out of there, install the Sonnax -03k tcc regulator valve in the original v.b., install an inner pump slide spring from a 4L60-E in place of the Sonnax supplied spring, and make sure you have an adequate supply of 2nd gear oil going to the tcc regulator valve. Look at the hydraulic charts on this tranny.....2nd gear oil can leak from a LOT of places. I feel you have done your homework....and I KNOW the frustration this ding-danged code can cause! One thing I feel is sure...you have the WRONG type lining for this application. Please post the fix. HTH
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 183)
- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 17:27:58 -080
Subject: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 milesRobert, Did you do any more testing on your side since the original post? I can't offer much more then just paste here what I wrote you a couple of days ago: 1996 doesn't use the woven. I don't know if this is the reason for your converter slip but it probably doesn't help. Second the input shaft could be chewed up where the stator bushings ride. It's quite common and very easy to miss since the shaft looks like it's been machined that way. Could also be a worn pump where the TCC valve rides. One more thing, since you replaced the stator shaft I would look at it closely for anything not normal if you pull the unit. Now how's the pressure on this thing anyway? How about the amount of slip cold versus hot, did you monitor it? Does it have lock-up at all? I got a 1870 the other day simply cause of a bad TCC solenoid. Lots of possibilities here Robert, stop throwing parts at this thing. Just do some diagnostic, figure out what is happening exactly and then it should be easy to find the cause. Tranibob Do you have any answers to these questions? Did you check any of those things that I mentioned? Like you said any internal component that is slipping can cause an 1870, but I have to say that 99.9% of the time if it is anything else then the lock-up you can feel it with the good old seat of the pants. Give us a bit more to chew on, and I'll bet you we can help you fix that thing in a jiffy, Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 272)
- Date: Mon Feb 18 08:13:27 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 miles
Vehicle: 1996 gmc yukon, 350 5.7Hi Robert , 2 things come to mind there is a a ground problem for the computer for that year gm makes a kit to fix it , it will rob your line pressure and burn it up , the other is the tcc regulator valve for the 1870 problem sonnax`s fix is a great one it works the way it suppose to . we do about 10 a month. Hope this helps,,Curt
Curt Preston -
gbat2@webtv.net
TRNi Member Since: 5/7/98 (0 | 5)
FIX:
Date: Tue Feb 19 11:14:08 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, p1870 after 35-45 milesWrong lining in the converter don't believe anybody CARBON WOVEN DOES NOT WORK IN ANYTHING BUT E CUBED E3 type system.it doesent matter what valves,shift kits or anything else you do dont use woven lining except 98 and up.
Robert White -
doctranyyy@cs.com
TRNi Member Since: 7/14/99 (2 | 0)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Wed Feb 20 04:22:12 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E P1870 AT 35-40 MINUTESRobert- Glad you fixed it! A lot of people took time to help steer you in the right direction. Thanks for sharing your fix.
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 190)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Thu Feb 14 14:26:38 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3
Mileage: 93000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: only 2nd gear. No upshift. speedo started to fail at the same time the transmission started to fail.
Original Codes Present: none
Previous Repairs: none
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: speedo still not working. delayed 1-2. no 2-3 or 3-4. no output rpm.
Codes Currently Present: 16 - vss drop out
Work Completed: overhauled transmission. Replaced vss.
Summary: Any advice? I was also told that the drac sensor might have something to do with this problem. Does anyone have the drac connector pin designations, I.E. vss signal, ground, etc. I've checked a few sources, including alldata, and all they have are generic diagrams.
Leon Lepore - 0
l_lepore@yahoo.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/4/2002 (1 | 0)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Thu Feb 14 14:37:59 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3Is the PRNDL illuminated ? If it is not, there is a fuse blown. Find it, fix it, out the door !
R.J. Kanary - Bandi Bros. Inc.
rjkanary@nauticom.net
TRNi Member Since: 8/20/98 (2 | 129)
- Date: Thu Feb 14 14:49:01 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3Leon, we have had several of these that have corroded wires right under the battery box.Open up the wire loom and often you will find the insulation on the wire swollen and when you pierce the insulation you will see all the corrosion.HTH
Ron Geddert -
dadstran@shaw.ca
TRNi Member Since: 3/7/00 (2 | 4)
- Date: Thu Feb 14 15:42:56 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3Leon- Look for a corroded connector behind the battery box. If it's bad, cut out the connector and solder/splice the wires,then coat with Liquid Tape. HTH
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 186)
- Date: Thu Feb 14 17:52:39 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3here are the wiring connections for the buffer: pin c7 grn/blk: to vss pin c8 blk/wht: ground pin c9 brn/blk: ign. pin c10: not conn. pin c11 dk. blu: vss output to ecm pin f13 pin c12 ppl/wht: to vss pin c13 brn: trans output to ecm pin f12 pin c14: not conn. pin c15 lt.blu/blk: to speedo this info was taken from alldata. hope this helps.
David Anidjar -
samuelyair@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 06/25/2001 (4 | 2)
- Date: Thu Feb 14 18:58:01 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3Leon, Are you getting a reading of MPH on the scanner? Probably not, is my experience. If not and the speedo is not working, then locate the buffer (DRAC). Turn the key to the on position. Take a test light and see if you can make the test light light up with on end of the test light in C9 and the other in C8. C9 is most likely pink/black, and C8 is most likely black or black.White. These wires power up the buffer. No power to the buffer= automatic DTC 16. Of course if you have no power at the buffer, see what is wrong. Narrow it down to see if it is a 12 volt loss or a ground. Quick test of this can be done by grounding the test light to the battery negative post and then stick the other end to the c9 at the buffer. If that is good, then connect the ground side of the test light to the positive post on the battery. Now stick the test light in the c8 cavity at the buffer. I love to use my amp-sucker test light for testing power supply circuits. My amp-sucker test light is just a plain snap-on test light with a dome light bulb in it. It takes a lot of current to light the dome light bulbs, so if it will light, then you most likely have plenty of voltage to work your testing circuit. Be careful where you use this test light. It is dangerous on testing those panty waist computer circuits. Use it ONLY for testing power supply voltages and grounds. If you have power and a ground, then get a DVOM and set it to A/C. Connect the DVOM leads to the purple/white and green/black wires at the buffer. Run the vehicle on the lift and see if you have a reading from the VSS to the buffer.
Dan Tucker - Tucker's Transmission
transman@prodigy.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (1 | 193)
- Date: Fri Feb 15 05:26:35 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3Make sure you make some basic test. Check the grounds going to the body and motor.
Leonard Marucci - Ralph's Transmissions
len@kwiknet.net
TRNi Member Since: 1/3/98 (7 | 28)
- Date: Sun Feb 17 14:24:04 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, speedo not working.
Vehicle: 1993 chevy g10, 4.3Leon, You've got lots of good info so do perform those checks, if for no other reason then to learn. We have seen this complaint many times, and it has "usually" been a broken wire in the VSS harness that attaches to the sensor itself. It happens on both 2 WD and 4WD units and the break has always been within 1" of the connector. Mud, snow, etc. will build up on the harness and the added weight moves the harness back and forth and the wires break inside. Before we had our Vantage, we just used a DVOM set to AC or Hertz and monitored the wires about 3" back from the VSS. If you have readings then follow the wires and start with the DRAC diagnosis already suggested. If you don't have any readings, either the sensor is dead or there is a break in one or both of the wires. To check the wires, disconnect the VSS connector, and use your Ohm setting to check each wire for continuity from the connector end to some point along the wire, 3", 6", etc. If no continuity, you will probably find the break near the connector as I described. You can actually feel the break by pinching along the wire with 2 fingers. The break is usually too close to the connector to waste your time fixing so just get a connector repair end from the dealer (sorry I don't have the number) or ATG sells them. The kits include a new connector, about 10" of wire and heat shrink butt connectors. Also, as preventive maintanence, we ensure the harness is secured good on all vehicles we work on and will add some electrical tape at the VSS connector, making sure to wrap tape around the connector to help keep the harness from moving back and forth and breaking.
David Schaffel - MTO Enterprises
dbschaffel@shaw.ca
TRNi Member Since: 6/9/00 (0 | 72)
FIX:
Date: Wed Feb 20 09:36:25 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, speedo not working.I found that we had a faulty DRAC. We replaced it and the van runs fine.
Leon Lepore - 0
l_lepore@yahoo.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/4/2002 (1 | 0)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Tue Feb 19 14:57:46 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350
Mileage: 130000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: no reverse
Original Codes Present: none
Previous Repairs: none
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: no reverse untill throttle is applied
Codes Currently Present: nomne
Work Completed: pulled unit back apart, replaced rev drum inspected pump,air test and reassembled Same problem, no reverse untill throttle is applied. Pressure test 55idle in drive 150appx at stall 75 idle reverse over 200 stall
Summary: let me clarify pressures drive idle 55psi drive stall 150psi rev idle 753 rev stall over 200 sorry but dont rember xact psi numbers My builder and have looked this thing over 3 times and dont see anything, this was supposed to be one of those gravey jobs. What are we over looking? DAN ALLEN DANCO TRANSMISSIONS 850-689-8646
Danny Allen -
danco@cfi.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/18/00 (3 | 3)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Tue Feb 19 15:09:30 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Dan, we have to be able to determine who is asleep, in the Reverse circuit. Reverse input clutch, or Low Reverse. How's the engine braking in Low ? If it is poor, there is a good place to start.Does the gauge plummet when Reverse is selected ? If it does, there is a big leak somewhere. The feed- bleed system on the Reverse input clutch has been known to cause this concern.Were any measures taken to prevent this ? The later short lip seals have been implicated in some hair pulls, also. Are the seals on the Reverse input clutch of this variety ? I know, more questions than answers, but we have to start somewhere !
R.J. Kanary - Bandi Bros. Inc.
rjkanary@nauticom.net
TRNi Member Since: 8/20/98 (2 | 136)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 15:28:16 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Sorry that the original post is as 'clear as mud'. It's been a really looonnnggg day! Yes we do have engine breaking in manual low; No gauge does not flutate when reverse is selected. Reverse drum air checks on pump. Lip seals are the long size. Yes, we agree either the reverse input or the low reverse one is not applying. You can feel a bump at engagement but no movement utill throttle tip in. The only valve body mods were sonnex tcc ream and new value. EPC turned up 1/8 turn.Hope this helps. Thanks! Dan Allen
Danny Allen -
danco@cfi.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/18/00 (3 | 3)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 15:42:29 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Were it MY headache , I would resolve it by doing away with the feed - bleed system. You know the drill. Chuck the Belleville plate, place a flat steel against piston, then a waved, a friction, a flat steel, a friction , a waved, a friction a flat steel,then the pressure plate. You may have to juggle late and early frictions to get the clearance that you are comfortable with. You may also have to put a friction against the flat steel against the piston, the get the stack up correct. I depends on the depth of the splined area of the drum. The idea is to end up with TWO waved steels in the stack up. For me , it has always been worth it, because, since I started doing this, I have not been blessed with this problem, even when changing drums and stator shafts that are not supposed to play nice with each other.
R.J. Kanary - Bandi Bros. Inc.
rjkanary@nauticom.net
TRNi Member Since: 8/20/98 (2 | 137)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 15:55:07 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Danny, Did you guys try installing one of those small Fitzall plugs into that huge bleed hole in the reverse piston? It may be worth a shot, I've used them for years with no problems. Steve R.
Steve Robinson -
shapeshooter@msn.com
TRNi Member Since: 3/31/98 (1 | 22)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 16:36:46 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Hi Danny Is plate at back of vb tight seen similar problems and this was it.
Sam Pitts -
pitspitts@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 04/26/2001 (3 | 92)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 17:19:39 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350danny did you air check the reverse input drum on the stator support, i run into one awhile back that the feed hole in the stator was not drilled to feed the reverse drum
Gary Mullins - Gary's transmission service
mullins@pldi.net
TRNi Member Since: 1/6/98 (1 | 3)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 19:13:12 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Danny, When I rebuild these, I continue the practice I started with the 700R4s that had the feed/bleed set up. I drill out the original bleed hole (in the reverse input clutch apply piston) and tap it for a small screw (I use the ones from the A604 low rev retainer since TransTech is so nice as to supply us with 3 new ones in each A604 kit). Locktite the screw in and cut the head off with a Dremel Tool. Next drill a .050" hole thru where they have the partially thru hole 180 degrees from bleed hole. I've had 100% success with this method. HTH Charlie
Chuck Reavis -
quui@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 9/26/98 (1 | 11)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 21:02:53 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Hi Danny, There could be a number of things that can cause this. The feed hole in the rev input drum has to match the pump stator shaft. One will be small and the other large. It can go either way which has which. If you have both with small holes you'll have this problem. If you have both with large holes it slams into reverse. Now some of us remove the PR and Boost valves in the pump. The Int/Rev boost installed backwards will cause this problem. Sam mentioned a loose bolts on the stiffener plate at the back of separator plate where rev and low apply holes are. Well hope this helps. Happy Shifting Torq
James Malin -
torqflyte@sherbtel.net
TRNi Member Since: 2/24/00 (0 | 1)
- Date: Tue Feb 19 21:35:34 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Danny, I few things come to mind. Because it is a 1998, it has the new style manual valve that dumps the old l&R clutches being on in park. Any possible mismatch of VB spacer plate or manual valve could cause unknown problems. Possibly reverse concerns. Your manual valve should have the flats land on it. If that's OK, then I would suspect a problem with the stator support. We installed an aftermarket stator once that came with an allen screw to reduce the hole size in the stator. We installed the allen screw, BUT didn't tighten it up. The allen screw turned itself in and blocked the feed in the stator, thus delay reverse. If you remove it again, I would replace the reverse input drum, and stator. Make sure you don;t have a drum with a badly grooved area where the bottom steel and bevel plate's outside teeth run.
Dan Tucker - Tucker's Transmission
transman@prodigy.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (1 | 196)
- Date: Wed Feb 20 02:53:22 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Hi Danny, Sorry about the wrong info on the boost valve. Can't put the valve in backwards on an E unit. Duh! Torq
James Malin -
torqflyte@sherbtel.net
TRNi Member Since: 2/24/00 (0 | 2)
- Date: Wed Feb 20 03:48:27 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Danny be sure to look at the pump pivot pin and the pressure relief ball and spring in the pump also look at the input drum and look for cracks lust inside the grooves that hold the rev input clutches had never seen cracks here until 2 weeks ago and both were 98 units almost as if drum was dropped when built at the factory but both units had over 100 k on them also check for cracks in case just to the to the inside of the linkage comb have seen several that crack here Good luck
Rick Adams - 0
terick3@yahoo.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/24/2002 (1 | 5)
- Date: Wed Feb 20 04:04:50 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350I had slow reverse and come to find it was torque converter drain back, replaced it and down the road it went
David Pollett -
kytransman@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 08/29/2001 (0 | 4)
- Date: Wed Feb 20 04:33:37 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Danny- Look at the reverse input drum where the cushion splines ride. I see alot of these with enough wear here that could cause the cushion to hang. How about the reverse boost valve and sleeve? I see alot of these worn also. 75PSI in reverse seems a little low if my memory is correct. HTH
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 191)
- Date: Wed Feb 20 11:17:23 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and pres
Vehicle: 98 chevy 1500 van, 350Danny, Check for a increase in line pressure in reverse when the problem occurs, and also the gear status on the scanner. If it shows reverse and you have boost, then you are getting at least some pressure into the reverse circuit. The L/R clutch should be on in park, do you notice any difference going from park to reverse or drive to reverse. Good luck, Gregg Nader
Sonnax Tech Center -
gan@sonnax.com
TRNi Member Since: 6/1/98 (0 | 23)
FIX:
Date: Fri Feb 22 08:28:48 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and presThanks to everyone who replyed, We pulled the unit one more time and inspected all related components and one again found no reason for the reverse problem, so we decided to take the advise recieved and modify the piston bleed hole. Plugged hole and drilled .050 releafe hole changed the cushion and put steel plate on bottom. Installed unit and works perfect! The part that still puzzles me is what was wrong, we do anywhere from 10 to20 of these units per month and this is the only one to give this problem, in fact have done 6 98 and 99 modles this week so far with 2 more in the lot wating. Just when you think you walk on water.Just kidding! Once again thanks to all who replied the info was greatly appreciated. DAN ALLEN DANCO TRANSMISSIONS CRESTVIEW FL. 850-689-8646
Danny Allen -
danco@cfi.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/18/00 (3 | 3)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Fri Feb 22 10:56:10 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, complete oh with tc electronics and presDanny Feed & Bleed system.. More bleed than feed... lower volume at idle.. Been doing Gil's fix for many years. You may not have noticed it because of idle speed or any # of reasons, but it is there. We always drill & put 400 cup plugs on both sides of Rev. piston.. Only takes a minute. We then are able to reinstall the cushion spring & avoid harsh Rev. engagement. Thanks for posting the real fix. R.
Richard Webb -
gearmaster@reachone.com
TRNi Member Since: 6/22/97 (9 | 12)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Tue Feb 19 20:06:49 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, No Line Rise 4l60E (19940
Vehicle: 1994 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 5. L
Mileage: 111KPAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: Tow in. No move. Bad TC
Original Codes Present: 67 or 69 (I forget)
Previous Repairs: Rebuilt 2 years ago
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: Has not left shop. No line rise. Replaced TC, guts were fine.
Codes Currently Present: None
Work Completed: Replaced TC, vehicle shifts fine for about 5 miles and then begins to downshift or slip. No line rise. Pressure is 75# in all ranges except R, then it jumps to 85#
Summary: Before replacing TC, unit was disassembled and was fine. I'm planning on replacing entire internal harness along with a new PCS in the AM. Old PCS checked out at 5.0 ohms. Computer shows no codes and all tests except for line rise appear to be in order according to Snappy. Thanks. Jim, III
James J. Schier III - Discount Transmission Center
stardust@frontiernet.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/22/97 (11 | 273)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Tue Feb 19 21:25:44 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No Line Rise 4l60E (19940
Vehicle: 1994 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 5. LJim III, It is possible that the either of PCS screens are plugged. In the spacer plate or on the PCS itself. Next the boost valve in the pump could be stuck. All can be quickly checked with the pan off. Of course it could be a bad PCS. If you had a TC failure, I would want a new PCS to add insurance of no more future TC faliures.
Dan Tucker - Tucker's Transmission
transman@prodigy.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (1 | 195)
- Date: Wed Feb 20 06:11:38 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No Line Rise 4l60E (19940
Vehicle: 1994 GMC 4X4 Pickup, 5. LHi just had one of those last week replaced pressure control sol and that fixed it the org. ohm ok/mechanical failure
Lonnie Nylund -
e4l60@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/19/00 (2 | 2)
- Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 21:45:49 -080
Subject: 4L60E, No Line Rise 4l60Jim, When you took it apart, how did the screens in the separator plate looked? They plug up very easily. Although the Ohms reading doesn't mean anything, I don't think you have a bad pressure solenoid. Won't hurt to replace it, (only about $40.00) but I have to say that I don't see them fail very often. Most of the time it's just he screen in the plate that is plugged up and collapse. BTW, how did the converter failed? Strip splines, or did it completely came apart in there? Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 278)
FIX:
Date: Sun Feb 24 21:52:20 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, No Line Rise 4l60E (19940PCS solenoid checked out. On a whim I replaced it. Vehicle is fixed and gone. I'm not even going to bother to check the PCS anymore, it will just become a rebuild standard to replace it. This is the second time that I have been fooled, there will not be a third. I truly thank the handful that replied and I will REMEMBER who you are. Jim, III
James J. Schier III - Discount Transmission Center
stardust@frontiernet.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/22/97 (11 | 275)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Tue Mar 5 06:50:11 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2
Mileage: 93000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: No movement. Rear planet, ring gear, sun gear, reaction carrier.
Original Codes Present: Code 1870
Previous Repairs: Complete overhaul, with clutches, seals, gaskets, sprags, planet, ring gear, sun gear, reaction carrier, sun shell, sonnax TCC regulator valve kit, solenoids, rebuilt converter.
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: Same as before
Codes Currently Present: None
Work Completed: Disassemble unit and inspect shaft, lube holes, etc.. Nothing found blocked. Planet is gone again.
Summary: Could this be the cooler, or am I overlooking something else. Thanks for your help.
Mark Bowler -
bowler@midwest.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/18/00 (8 | 0)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Tue Mar 5 07:03:32 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Yes it could be the cooler. Whenever I have a planet failure, the cooler gets bypassed with a truecool.But seeing how it is a 1998 I would be looking closely at the pump. There is plastic orifice which melts and blocks lube. ATRA and ATSG have bulletins on it. There is also probably information on it in the fix database.
Dale Blake - Elbow Auto Trans
dblake@telusplanet.net
TRNi Member Since: 12/15/97 (0 | 84)
- Date: Tue Mar 5 07:21:01 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Hi Mark Cooler flow might be it and that's easy enough to check.My thought is the seal that goes under the sprag.Is it there.Most of the ones I see with planet failure the seal is shot.Maybe it got left out.You checked shaft etc,also are all the bushing in the sun gear etc,and fit good. Hope this helps.
Harold Field - Triple R Transmission
trblshtr@tdstelme.net
TRNi Member Since: 2/1/99 (8 | 22)
- Date: Tue Mar 5 07:42:42 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark, if the geartrain was black and blue I would look for a lube or lock-up problem. The 2.2 is pretty weak for this application and will require allot of throttle to maintain road speed. This could factor into your heat problem if the converter has a really high stall speed and is running around unlocked all the time due to throttle position. We like to use a lower stall converter in these if we can to help this situation, ask your converter rebuilder for input on this. You will only give up a wee bit of acceleration ability ( not that these trucks have any) but it will keep things cooler in unlocked 4th gear situations. If the gear train is just fragged out I would consider it a possible defective rear planet bearing. Good luck! Greg
Greg Ducato - 0
phx1tran@airmail.net
TRNi Member Since: 11/28/2001 (1 | 17)
UPDATE:
Date: Tue Mar 5 08:18:42 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 milesI have checked the orifice in the pump and the seal under the sprag. Both are fine. I have assembled the pump with the clutch units and the output shaft on the bench. Using air pressure there is good flow coming from the pump out to the output shaft. The converter was and HZ, that is the same that came out. The planet came from WIT. I haven't had any problems with there planets lately. The planet is black, so I feel it is a lube problem somewhere. Thanks for the help so far.
Mark Bowler -
bowler@midwest.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/18/00 (8 | 0)
MORE RESPONSES:
- Date: Tue Mar 5 09:53:07 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark- What type of cooler flusher do you use? The reason I ask is that after using the DCI Hot-Flush now for several months, I AM AMAZED at what I was leaving behind with my old method of cooler flushing. JAT HTH
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 207)
- Date: Tue Mar 5 10:10:58 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark, Check the seal in the input drum that seals to the output shaft, there are two versions of this, Steve Younger said in one of his seminars that if you use the old seal with a new shaft you will have planet meltdown. Also check the cooler lines for damage. We just did one that had melted three transmissions, found that the vehicle had been in an accident about three years ago and the cooler lines were crushed. No one bothered to check cooler flow, they just kept throwing planets at it. HTH Jerry
Jerry Martire - Shirlington Transmissions
transmission_doctor@worldnet.att.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/5/00 (3 | 92)
- Date: Tue Mar 5 11:54:26 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark, NEW COOLER, with that much damage the cooler has to be restricted if not completetly stopped up. Also check with other shops in your area that use the same brand planets to see if they are having the same problem, might also want to make sure that lock up is working right.HTH
Tim Kilpatrick - Eagle Transmission
tkeaglemsq@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 03/26/2001 (21 | 35)
- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:28:29 -0700
Subject: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 milesDon't forget the aftermarket planets with bad bearings. Had four or five go down here. Where did your planet come from? Don
Don Callender
Colorado Springs, Colorado
tranclin@covad.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/13/00 (19 | 193)
- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:07:01 -0800
Subject: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 milesSure it could be, and probably is the cooler. With all those parts that where destroyed the fist time around, there must have been lots of metal everywhere. Did the lock-up functioned properly after the overhaul? Once it's back in there it would be a good idea to check cooler flow, TCC operation, and run a pressure test. If there is a pressure loss somewhere the PR valve could be staying in the max line position to compensate and thus cutting cooler flow completely. Good luck, Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 319)
- Date: Tue Mar 5 20:00:50 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark, A while back we had a S10 come in with planet failure that was lack of lube. You know it was all blue and heat treated. We installed another unit in the vehicle and it was one of those cases where tech A though tech B flushed it, and tech C thought tech A flushed it. Well, after 43 miles, we had a repeat failure and found out to our suprize neither tech A, B, C or D flushed it. We all thought the other guy did it! So 43 miles was it's range. It stopped up the filter and quite pulling. We rebuilt it again, and flushed the cooler FOR SURE, and it's fixed. Keep in mind that the converter is a HZH and it IS woven. Installing a paper TCC could cause it to peel off and plug the best of coolers. Speaking of cooler, this vehicle has a 3/8 cooler line setup, and really repsonds well to flushing with a good flusher.
Dan Tucker - Tucker's Transmission
transman@prodigy.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (1 | 208)
- Date: Wed Mar 6 22:32:32 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2The last three planet melt downs I had in my shop, I checked the coolant level and found the level to be about one third low. Although the coolant was low, the engine wasn't overheating. I don't know for sure if this was the reason, but we serviced the cooling system and they weren't back. Good luck. Please post the fix, I would like to know.
Keith Shoup -
shoupsauto@igiles.net
TRNi Member Since: 02/26/2001 (12 | 59)
- Date: Thu Mar 7 01:46:04 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Keith makes a very good point. I am a big fan of using the TruCool Coolers and bypassing the Radiator for a clean, effective cooling system. That being said, with the low coolant level you could still NOT be locking up, or staying locked up due to engine temp not registering correctly.
Leo Schneggenburger -
lschneg1@rochester.rr.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/30/99 (6 | 322)
- Date: Thu Mar 7 07:05:46 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark; Couple of things here. First, the 4L60E uses the soft type seal where the input drum contacts the output shaft. I have seen several of these 4L60E's block one of the holes under the stator support. Take those 3 little screws out, and press the stator out of the stator body and blow air thru all of the holes in the steel stator and alos in the aluminum cover. I have seen this many times on ones that have blown a rear planet. The metal from that planet sometimes gets into these holes and blocks them off. Good luck!
Tommy Painter -
county9@yahoo.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/19/98 (4 | 13)
- Date: Thu Mar 7 08:02:01 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark, I agree with Keith & Leo about radiator bypass,(use of ext. cooler)-Flow could appear to be great when checked cold but once it gets hot that's when restriction often occurs.Also be sure you are using the brown rubber type lube seal in fwd drum not the pink or white plastic one.HTH ,
Roy@Transworks
Raul (Roy) Medellin - Transworks
raulmedellin@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 2/11/00 (2 | 6)
- Date: Thu Mar 7 11:30:01 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 miles
Vehicle: 1998 GMC SONOMA, 2.2Mark, If you don't have one, I would suggest that you invest in the Sonnax flow meter. Mine has paid for itself many times over by detecting low cooler flow and saving an otherwise certain comeback that I would have had to pay for. On a 4L60E you should be seeing around 1.6 to 2 GPM on the highway unlocked and around 2.4 to 2.6 in lockup. If you do not have these flows you have a plugged cooler or weak pump. Inspect the cooler lines for damage, we just did a 700R4 that had failed 3 times before we saw it. The vehicle had been in an accident and the cooler lines were crushed, no one had bothered to check the flow and kept throwing transmissions at it and not investigating why they were failing. HTH Jerry
Jerry Martire - Shirlington Transmissions
transmission_doctor@worldnet.att.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/5/00 (3 | 94)
FIX:
Date: Thu Mar 7 17:44:01 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, Repeat planet failure within 100 milesBypassed cooler and installed a external Tru-cool. So far so good. The customer stopped by today and said it is doing great. After inspecting everything else, I feel this was the fix. Thanks for all the help!
Mark Bowler -
bowler@midwest.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/18/00 (8 | 0)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Tue Mar 12 12:23:29 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to second
Vehicle: 1993 chevrolet 1500, 5.7
Mileage: 173780PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: intermittetly dropping out of od into second
Original Codes Present: no codes
Previous Repairs: rebuilt put solenoids pump planetaries at 163620 miles
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: dropping out of od down to second or first at 40 to 60 mph pull over on side of road trans works right for a little bit then back to the same thing
Codes Currently Present: no codes
Work Completed: hooked up snap on scanner no codes hooked up transx showed calling for 2nd sometimes or 1st sometimes
Summary: drove truck downshifted while in od to second pulled over and stopped vehicle completely trans worked good for a while then downshifted again around 50 mph trans was rebuilt 10,000 miles ago need help if possible
Rick Taylor -
rickstrans@simplecom.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/28/99 (2 | 0)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Tue Mar 12 18:11:07 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to second
Vehicle: 1993 chevrolet 1500, 5.7Rick, You are probably looking at a speed sensor problem. Suggest you put in a new speed sensor and a new connector, also check the wiring in the vicinity of the speed sensor, the wires have been known to break. HTH Jerry
Jerry Martire - Shirlington Transmissions
transmission_doctor@worldnet.att.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/5/00 (3 | 98)
- Date: Tue Mar 12 18:22:33 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to second
Vehicle: 1993 chevrolet 1500, 5.7Might monitor commanded gear state on the scanner when it drops out. Bad PSA can cause this.
Chuck Clampitt - Chuck's Transmission
mrshift@starcomm.net
TRNi Member Since: 12/25/98 (0 | 191)
- Date: Tue Mar 12 18:43:06 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to second
Vehicle: 1993 chevrolet 1500, 5.7Rick check manifold pressure switch.
Mark Santiso -
zeus@noln.com
TRNi Member Since: 11/19/2000 (2 | 4)
- Date: Wed Mar 13 04:12:15 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to second
Vehicle: 1993 chevrolet 1500, 5.7Rick- Sounds like a speed sensor problem to me. It's Movie Time! Did you use oem solenoids? HTH
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 212)
- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:03:31 -0800
Subject: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to secondRick, There is only one way to figure out this kind of problem. You must take a movie with your scan tool when the problem happen, and then review it carefully to see which input is changing to make the computer command a downshift. Once you know what cause the downshift it soul be fairly easy to fix, Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 322)
- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:29:46 -0600
Subject: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to secondStrange problem for this unit. If it were a ford, mlps! ( mlps on these are a bitch, get damaged during r&r? )
Mark Mileske
Big Bend, Wisconsin
chiefrockhead@msn.com
TRNi Member Since: 3/9/2002 (0 | 3)
- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:03:31 -0800
Subject: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to secondRick, There is only one way to figure out this kind of problem. You must take a movie with your scan tool when the problem happen, and then review it carefully to see which input is changing to make the computer command a downshift. Once you know what cause the downshift it soul be fairly easy to fix, Tranibob
Robert Moreau
Mission Viejo, California
tranibob@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/30/97 (1 | 325)
- Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:29:46 -0600
Subject: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to secondStrange problem for this unit. If it were a ford, mlps! ( mlps on these are a bitch, get damaged during r&r? )
Mark Mileske
Big Bend, Wisconsin
chiefrockhead@msn.com
TRNi Member Since: 3/9/2002 (0 | 5)
FIX:
Date: Wed Mar 20 14:20:21 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, drops out of od and third back to secondCustomer installed used computer haven't heard from him in a week assume it is fixed
Rick Taylor -
rickstrans@simplecom.net
TRNi Member Since: 9/28/99 (2 | 0)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Thu Mar 21 10:12:38 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, none yet
Vehicle: 1994 chevrolet 20 series 2wd van, 5.0
Mileage: 74,000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: #rd gear starts
Original Codes Present: sol. B code
Previous Repairs: Replaced shift solenoids both A&B and manifold pressure manifold switch
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: 3rd gear starts
Codes Currently Present: sol. B and once had quad driver B
Work Completed: Hooked tranx, pressure gauge and snappy up drove 4 hours pressures normal everything worked fine. The van is a vendors they load it with 50 cases pop and boom failsafe.
Summary: Every time after we worked on this van I would hook everything [tranx, snappy, pressure gauge] everything would read fine, I told them it must only happen loaded and they loaded it sure enough the van doesn't even have to move and I can watch it go to failsafe clear codes watch the scanner with-in 5 sec. failsafe and we get a code for sol. B circuit I assume the circuit has a problem and yes I am going to hook tranx to it and measure resistance on the B cir. and at the computer but I don't understand why it has to be loaded.By the way a case of pop is 21 lbs so were only talking about 1000 lbs
Bud Tegeler -
tegtrans@essex1.com
TRNi Member Since: 5/14/98 (8 | 32)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Thu Mar 21 17:15:37 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, none yet
Vehicle: 1994 chevrolet 20 series 2wd van, 5.0Bud, If that true that it will do it without moving - I would suspect electral problem, possible a ground or some part of a wiring harness that is either being pinched or pulled when the truck squats from the load. Just a guess and you probaly have already considered.
Chuck Stasny - 0
cdsstaz@wt.net
TRNi Member Since: 12/7/2001 (2 | 19)
- Date: Thu Mar 21 19:39:29 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, none yet
Vehicle: 1994 chevrolet 20 series 2wd van, 5.0Doed it set the code with koeo, and if it is then you simply have an ignition problem . Some one makes a bypass feed to the sol so that you don't even have to replace the ignition switch itself.
Steve Walker - 0
sdiswalker@msn.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/21/2002 (4 | 4)
- Date: Thu Mar 21 20:20:02 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, none yet
Vehicle: 1994 chevrolet 20 series 2wd van, 5.0Hi Bud, I vaguely remember a problem with the wiring harness going under the drivers seat. Maybe the harness is being disturbed when the van is loaded. Since it consistently goes to failsafe with a load, you can run a new wire for the B solenoid and see if that fixes it.
Daniel Wills - Mid-City
danwills@mindspring.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/23/99 (0 | 33)
- Date: Thu Mar 21 20:44:57 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, none yet
Vehicle: 1994 chevrolet 20 series 2wd van, 5.0What would be the code #s?
Kenneth Hayes - G&G Parts&Service
deranger@ipa.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/8/99 (0 | 118)
FIX:
Date: Fri Mar 22 14:59:01 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, none yetIt took a while to find the computor, under the drivers seat, but it makes wire checks easy with the doghouse removed. I put an ohm meter on the sol. a&b circuits they were the same had my brother watch and I pulled and twisted wire harness thinking surely it was wires just before the computor but meter never moved. My brother went and borrowed a computer from the local yard ,we went for drive and as soon as it went limp I tried clearing codes and it went right back, put the borrowed unit on and problem dissapeared. Why it only did it with weight I don't know. Ordered a new computer but for now it's working fine with the used one. Just a side note the van squated almost 2 inches with a skid of pop, Thanks everyone Bud
Bud Tegeler -
tegtrans@essex1.com
TRNi Member Since: 5/14/98 (8 | 32)
End Of Thread
PROBLEM / FIX:
Date: Mon Apr 1 02:49:51 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, P1870
Vehicle: 1998 Chevrolet AstroProblem / Fix: Group- Had a van this past week...61,000 miles..would set a P1870 code after about 10 miles of hard driving. TFT was 150*F or more, and tcc slip would climb to 400+ with tcc pwm duty cycle maxed. Pressure test was good(65# mainline and pressure rise was clean and smooth.) On a dare, I inspected the pan and filter..(clean as a whistle) Then, I dropped the v.b. and installed the Sonnax -04k kit,along with a new filter and fluid. The tcc regulator bore was worn badly! Test drove the vehicle for over 100 miles, and now tcc slip is NEVER over 50 rpms at anytime,..even with TFT above 175*F. The 400+ tcc slip rpm really made me think there had to be a deeper problem, but I was amazed at the fact that the Sonnax kit fixed it so well. Thank You, Sonnax! This EC3 system (woven lining) is some tough stuff! The customer was DELIGHTED that we were able to save them money,..(yes.. I explained that something else COULD go wrong with the tranny later,and this was a fix for a specific concern.) BUT..they sure liked the fact they did'nt have to overhaul the trans. at this time! Again, Thanks Sonnax! Joey Campbell
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 237)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Mon Apr 1 06:59:27 PST 2002
Subject: RE: P1870Joey: Question...is the Sonnax valve redesigned or have some improvements to keep this from happening again in another 61K miles?
Larry Bloodworth - Certified Transmission & Drivetrain Clinic
larrybloodworth@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 9/26/97 (13 | 65)
RESPONSE TO FIX:
Date: Tue Apr 2 03:17:51 PST 2002
Subject: RE: P1870We feel it will just last another 60k and so we use the sk kit and paper tc.
Chuck Stasny - 0
cdsstaz@wt.net
TRNi Member Since: 12/7/2001 (2 | 22)
UPDATE BY AUTHOR:
Date: Tue Apr 2 04:40:04 PST 2002
Subject: RE: P1870Hi Larry- I think Seth answered your question, but let me ask you .... How long is this tranny supposed to last? Remember, this was a REPAIR...NOT an overhaul. Yes, I realize that the reaction shell may break tomorrow,or the pump bushing may collapse and start leaking like a sieve,or the rear planet bearing may fail,............................. etc,... but then, even if I did overhaul it for this P1870, the replacement torque converter that I might have used COULD explode in, say 10,000 miles. Then who gets to pay? The point I was trying to make was that I could not believe the amount of tcc slip BEFORE the Sonnax fix,and that the woven lining in the t.c. could withstand such slippage and still be able to maintain the desired amount of controlled slippage once the Sonnax 04K kit was installed. Glad to see you're back active on TRNi.
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 237)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Tue Apr 2 17:34:11 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350
Mileage: 155,000PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: Slipping real bad in forward gears.
Original Codes Present: 1870 TCC slip
Previous Repairs: Periodic servicing only -pan drops-filter changes.
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: No forward engagement-reverse is fine.
Codes Currently Present: None
Work Completed: Pressure checks and line rise all within normal range.
Summary: I rebuilt this trans-installed an Aceomatic super kit, pressure switch, position switch, force motor, and all solinoids-all oem. Replaced the convertor with an Aceomatic house brand. The only reference I can find to this problem is in the ATSG manual which points to a stator roller clutch not holding inside the torque converter. Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Respectfully submitted, Loren Knighton Woodland, CA.
Loren Knighton -
backncardr@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (2 | 3)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Tue Apr 2 17:45:50 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350Loren, do you have reverse?If so I wouldn't blame the converter it doesn't know reverse from forward...Good luck
Robert Patrick -
trannydoctor1@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 06/18/2001 (0 | 31)
- Date: Tue Apr 2 18:13:58 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350Hi Loren, Here is some info that may help you with this. TransDoc Visual Diagnostics Tuesday April 02, 2002 8:12:24 TH 4L60E Trouble Guide 9 ------------------------ No Forward 1) Fluid level 2) Filter out of place, or broken - "O" ring missing 3) Forward accumulator cover loose or damaged 4) Forward accumulator piston bad or not sealing 5) Forward clutch bad Press a NUMBER or (P) FOR A PRINTOUT or (+ or -) FOR PAGES or Press ENTER
Ron Widing - TransDoc Software
transdoc@juno.com
TRNi Member Since: 11/29/96 (0 | 204)
- Date: Tue Apr 2 18:18:39 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350Loren The converter sprag wont cause a no move condition but it will cause a loss of power. It sounds like you may have installed the forward sprag upside down.
Tom Whitty -
twhitty@nji.com
TRNi Member Since: 8/14/99 (0 | 34)
- Date: Tue Apr 2 19:40:36 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350As others have said, the converter will not cause this. Check Forward in each Drive position. If it all of a sudden moves in the D2 position then you likely have the Sprag installed backwards. Now you will be able to take off in D1 and D2 and since the Overrun Clutch is NOT there to help in regular Drive you would likely 'slip' again unless you hit fast enough for 4th where it would imediately bind up. I tell you this so you don't try that step.
Leo Schneggenburger -
lschneg1@rochester.rr.com
TRNi Member Since: 1/30/99 (6 | 345)
- Date: Wed Apr 3 04:08:06 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350Hi Loren- It's not the converter...but it sure could be a problem with the input sprag...or input clutch circuit. HTH and PTF!
Joey Campbell - Campbell's Transmission Service
bccampbe@sitestar.net
TRNi Member Since: 4/6/98 (1 | 238)
- Date: Wed Apr 3 05:22:01 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350Loren, As others have said, most likely the input sprag in installed backwards or damaged. One other thing that would cause a no forward apply without a pressure loss is a rotated sleeve in the stator support blocking off the apply passages. I haven't seen this happen in years, but if the input sprag is OK, it would be worth checking. Just compare the alignment of the holes to another stator shaft ( when looking down the stator shaft from the rear of he pump, the lower most hole in the sleeve lines up perfectly with one of the open passages that are located beside the sleeve and below the rear stator bushing ). HTH
Robert Bruce - Lone Star Transmission
roberttech@ev1.net
TRNi Member Since: 7/25/99 (0 | 37)
- Date: Wed Apr 3 11:37:59 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, No forward engagement
Vehicle: 1996 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4, 350Loren, a couple of things to look at would be a crack in the input drum, bad stator. Like others have said you can rule out the torque converter. HTH
Tim Kilpatrick - Eagle Transmission
tkeaglemsq@hotmail.com
TRNi Member Since: 03/26/2001 (22 | 41)
FIX:
Date: Thu Apr 4 17:13:34 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, No forward engagementFinally got this trans back from the shop that installed it. Lo and behold on teardown I find that I had left out the input sun gear. The trans works fine now. Feeling real stupid here. I would like to thank all the builders that took their time to help including Dan Tucker who kindly posted a page from his Trans Doc program. In my case builder's blindness should have been at the top of that list. :-/ Respectfully submitted, Loren Knighton Woodland, CA.
Loren Knighton -
backncardr@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 4/23/97 (2 | 3)
End Of Thread
QUESTION:
Date: Thu Mar 28 14:32:36 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2
Mileage: 72,539PAST REPAIRS;
Original Customer Complaint: Shutter type feel when slowing down
Original Codes Present: 69
Previous Repairs: Complete Overhaul, Converter, wiring harness w/solenoid. Converter still does not unlock when stopping, pressing brakes, etc. Once stopped, and engine killed, will start-up and take off just fine. Or, you can pull it into manual low and then back to OD and take off just fine. Cannot find any stuck valves. Have even tried another harness c/solenoid. Anyone else seen such?
REPAIRS THIS VISIT;Current Customer Complaint: Same as before
Codes Currently Present: 69
Work Completed: Recheck previous work.
Summary: Computer is commanding TCC off, according to scanner.
Felix Turner III -
felixt3@charter.net
TRNi Member Since: 8/4/00 (1 | 1)
RESPONSES:
- Date: Thu Mar 28 14:53:27 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2Felix is the l/u being commanded? Assuning it isn't did you check pump warpage and is the tcc valve in the pump free. Bud
Bud Tegeler -
tegtrans@essex1.com
TRNi Member Since: 5/14/98 (8 | 35)
- Date: Thu Mar 28 15:20:23 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2On some lock-up clutch systems have found the the signal pressure line to the solenoid has been flooded with pressure. A missing restriction in this circuit can cause this. Gaskets, separator plates and screens should be checked. Just a few ideas. Bill Davidson SAIT transportation.
William Davidson -
bill.davidson@sait.ab.ca
TRNi Member Since: 11/2/98 (0 | 3)
- Date: Thu Mar 28 16:06:24 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2Felix, The first thing that I would try is drop the pan and remove the lock-up solenoid. Take a pick and see if you can move the lock-up valve in the pump up and down. It sounds like for some reason this valve is getting stuck in the upshift position.
Bob Perry - Aamco of Morristown
bobauto2000@aol.com
TRNi Member Since: 11/1/97 (4 | 85)
- Date: Thu Mar 28 17:23:36 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2Felix: Please include code meanings with your posts. I just ran code 69 and came up with some strange non-transmission related results. Jim, III
James J. Schier III - Discount Transmission Center
stardust@frontiernet.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/22/97 (12 | 309)
- Date: Thu Mar 28 19:21:07 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2I think it was code 69... sitting at home I can't remember the exact number, but it was "TCC stuck on."
Felix Turner III -
felixt3@charter.net
TRNi Member Since: 8/4/00 (1 | 1)
- Date: Thu Mar 28 21:12:09 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2Felix: On the code 69, it appears that my trouble code CD is wrong and you are correct. I received at private E from Deranger confirming that code is indeed TCC Stuck. Sorry for the misinformation. Jim, III
James J. Schier III - Discount Transmission Center
stardust@frontiernet.net
TRNi Member Since: 10/22/97 (12 | 312)
- Date: Fri Mar 29 06:59:25 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2Felix, It sounds like the TCC valve in the pump is in backwards, stuck or you put the springs in after the valve. Pull the solenoid & you should see the larger of the 2 tips on the valve resting on the retainer. If not, you found your problem.
Ted Turney -
tedeb@pacbell.net
TRNi Member Since: 11/1/96 (1 | 61)
UPDATE:
Date: Sat Mar 30 05:22:52 PST 2002
Subject: 4L60E, Converter not releasingWent into again - cannot find a valve sticking, pump or valve body. Went to the Olds/Cad/Buick/Chevy dealership (where I work at times since 1984) so my buddies could hook-up the Tech 2. We drove and commanded Converter on ourselves, that was fine, just as the computer does it, but we could not command it off. It stated that it was off, but was not. It is appearing to me that once the apply valve in the pump is moved to the apply position, then perhaps pressure from some other source is keeping the valve "applied," even though the solenoid has "dumped" the apply pressure. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Felix Turner III -
felixt3@charter.net
TRNi Member Since: 8/4/00 (1 | 1)
MORE RESPONSES:
- Date: Sat Mar 30 07:03:45 PST 2002
Subject: RE: 4L60E, Converter not releasing
Vehicle: 1995 Chevrolet Sanoma, 2.2Hi Felix, Here is some info that may help. TransDoc Visual Diagnostics Saturday March 30, 2002 9:01:32 TH 4L60E Trouble Guide 51 ------------------------- No release of Lockup 1) TCC Solenoid problem - plugged, short to ground 2) Converter signal valve or control valve stuck - See TG 61 #3 3) PCM defective 4) Torque converter defective Press a NUMBER or (P) FOR A PRINTOUT or (+ or -) FOR PAGES or Press ENTER TransDoc Visual Diagnostics Saturday March 30, 2002 9:03:56 TH 4L60E Trouble Guide 61 -------------------------